CULTURE/SOCIETY and SPIRITUALITY/RELIGION: Nativity Display Message Board Action

Seinfeld 'Festivus' Display Vies With Nativity
By SARA KENNEDY, AP

BARTOW, Fla. (Dec. 23) - When a church group put a nativity scene on public property, officials warned it might open the door to other religious - and not-so-religious - displays. They were right.

Since the nativity was erected in Polk County, displays have gone up honoring Zoroastrianism and the fake holiday Festivus, featured on the TV show "Seinfeld."

The Polk County Commission voted 4-1 Wednesday to permit the nativity scene to remain across the street from the courthouse, as well as to make that area a "public forum" open to any type of display.

But the commission insisted that unless someone claims a particular display and submits a written request asking it remain, it would be removed. By Wednesday evening, no one had claimed the Festivus display, and the commission said it would come down; a woman claimed the Zoroastrianism display, which was to stay.

The debate began Dec. 15 when a handmade creche with the figures of Joseph, Mary and baby Jesus was erected by a Bible study group from the First Baptist Church of Bartow.

"The real spirit of Christmas is the birth of Christ," said Marvin Pittman, a retired law enforcement officer and parishioner. "We felt it needs to be in the public eye, so we did it."

Other displays are fine, too, he said, adding, "If somebody wants to do that, it's their right."

And true to form, the site almost immediately sprouted alternative displays, including a simple sign that reads: "Festivus for the Rest of Us - Donated to Polk County by the Seinfeld Fan Club."

The display, a reference to the fake holiday featured on an episode of the television sitcom, did not include the totem of Festivus - a bare aluminum pole instead of a tree. Key rituals of Festivus include accusing others of being a disappointment and wrestling.

Another display celebrating Zoroastrianism was erected by Stella Darby, who wanted to encourage people to research the ancient Persian religion.

Richard Blank, a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, objected to the nativity scene's presence on public property, arguing it violates the constitutional separation of church and state.

"The nativity scene is totally celebratory of the birth of Christ," he said. "Not everyone subscribes to that, and those who do should put it on their own property."

But a board member who voted to allow the creche as part of the "public forum" disagreed with Blank. "A group had asked to display a scene important to their beliefs; I felt we shouldn't suppress their right to do so," said Commissioner Samuel K. Johnson.

Copyright 2004 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.




Message 1 of 60 (Msg # 549107:5)
Subject: CHRISTmas
Date: 12/23/04 4:55:48 PM EST

I live here in Polk County and I am ashamed at what this world is coming to. EVERY other religion BUT Christianity is widely accepted. Christmas is a Christian holiday and for the ACLU and other faculties to remove the meaning from this celebration is absurd! Has anyone bothered to read the Declaration of Independence or our Constitution? Our founding fathers were God fearing men. Christmas is not about Santa and pretty lights it is about a gift that was given to ALL of us 2000 years ago. It is up to us to accept it or not. It is fine with me if people choose not to believe in Jesus but all I ask is please don't take that RIGHT away from me. We all have choices in our lives and no one knows what is yet to come but I do know that I am responsible for me. Christmas is a religious holiday and is a celebration of MY Savior's birth. If non Christians do not like this then they need to re -examine the meaning of Christmas and possibly evaluate their perspective in life. The display of a Nativity scene is NOT demonstrative of government in religion it is FREEDOM of SPEECH. I am heartbroken that our great nation is stooping to such levels and people do not have better things to do with their time. Lets all become friends again and get to know our neighbors and ...why can't we all get along?



Message 60 of 60 (Msg # 549107:501)
Subject: Re: CHRISTmas
Date: 12/24/04 2:35:45 AM EST
Author: OlderMusicGeek

"Our founding fathers were God-fearing men." - This is not totally true. Some were, but others were deists, who believed A god - not necessarily the Christian one - created the universe, but then left it alone.

"It is fine with me if people choose not to believe in Jesus, but all I ask is please don't take that RIGHT away from me." "The display of a Nativity scene is NOT demonstrative of government in religion. It is FREEDOM of SPEECH." - That right isn't being taken away. You are allowed to believe. You - or any other believer of a religion - shouldn't be allowed to use public space to display your religion - or else all religions- Christian, Wiccan, Pagan, whatever- should be allowed to display on public property. Otherwise, the government is establishing a certain religion as the proper one.

"Let's all become friends again and get to know our neighbors and... why can't we all get along?" - We can if we all have the same rights and privileges for all our religions.


Message 2 of 60 (Msg # 549107:15)
Subject: Re: CHRISTmas
Date: 12/23/04 5:19:43 PM EST

You're right...and their actions are disrespectful as well. I would never horn in on the expression of another religion in such rude defiance. It's to the point where Christians are being persecuted...in a country that was founded by Christians. My final comment would be that I expect all government and non Christian people to report to work on Christmas.



Message 14 of 60 (Msg # 549107:503)
Subject: Re: CHRISTmas
Date: 12/24/04 2:41:43 AM EST
Author: OlderMusicGeek

"I would never horn in on the expression of another religion in such rude defiance." - When one particular religion is allowed expression on PUBLIC property and others are not, that one is the one doing the horning in.

"My final comment would be that I expect all government and non-Christian people to report to work on Christmas." - I bet many would if they could get their own holidays off and paid for.


Message 3 of 61 (Msg # 549107:145)
Subject: Re: CHRISTmas
Date: 12/23/04 7:16:04 PM EST

>I would never horn in on the expression of another religion in such rude defiance.

That's not what's happening. The town ruled that a nativity scene and scenes that marked any other sort of belief system could be built on town property. The ruling didn't specify how close the other displays should be to the nativity one or what and what couldn't be displayed near the nativity scene.

The point is, you Christians got to show your nativity scene. Now you're jealous that other scenes were allowed whose statements don't agree with yours. But that's one of the aspects of free speech and what it allows.

So what are you Christians whining about so loudly? That you didn't have everything YOUR way?


Message 9 of 61 (Msg # 549107:451)
Subject: Re: CHRISTmas
Date: 12/24/04 12:55:59 AM EST

YOU’RE SICK.

(Name removed) wrote: [[That's not what's happening. The town ruled that a nativity scene and scenes that marked any other sort of belief system could be ]]


Message 10 of 61 (Msg # 549107:505)
Subject: Re: CHRISTmas
Date: 12/24/04 2:49:19 AM EST
Author: OlderMusicGeek

"That's not what's happening. The town ruled that a nativity scene and scenes that marked any other sort of belief system could be displayed..."

"You're sick."

Why is this person sick?


Message 11 of 60 (Msg # 549107:203)
Subject: Re: CHRISTmas
Date: 12/23/04 8:08:04 PM EST

And I am adding my agreement in with the two of you..wholeheartedly. Wonder what would happen if us Christians (about 80% of the population believes in the virgin birth, according to AOL)..got together and revolted against Christmas displays of Santa and reindeer etc?..it is offensive to us..what if we boycott any stores that use Santa in their Christmas advertizing.?..a celebration of Christ's birth has become a commercial spending free for all...and that is offensive to us, but we have tolerated it for years. NOW the 20% are telling us that we can no longer display the nativity without offending someone who doesn't believe the same? Isn't it time that we 80% stop letting the 20% push us around.?



Message 13 of 60 (Msg # 549107:508)
Subject: Re: CHRISTmas
Date: 12/24/04 2:54:53 AM EST
Author: OlderMusicGeek

"(displays of Santa are) offensive to us"

Sorry, but not all Christians find Santa offensive. It is mostly the fundamentalists who do, and they do NOT make up a majority of the Christians in this country.

Also, Santa displays in stores are on PRIVATE property, not PUBLIC property as the nativity display is.

"Isn't it time that 80% stop letting 20% push us around?"

Actually, the Constitution was designed to protect minority opinion and prevent the tyranny of the majority.


Message 27 of 60 (Msg # 549107:23)
Subject: Re: CHRISTmas
Date: 12/23/04 5:28:38 PM EST

Richard Blank, a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, objected to the nativity scene's presence on public property, arguing it violates the constitutional separation of church and state.
This Is A Crock Of Bull!! The Constitution Contains NOTHING That Demands A "Separation Of Church & State"!!
Although The ACLU Has Done A Few Good Things, The Majority Of Its Efforts Misrepresent The American People.
For Those That Choose To Eliminate The Existence Of GOD, Contact The ACLU & DEMAND To Be Allowed To Work On December 25th. As It Is "Just Another Day" For You, Holiday Pay Should Not Apply, As A Matter Of Honor.
The Constitution States; "Congress Shall Make No Law Respecting An Establishment Of Religion, Or Prohibiting The Free Exercise Thereof..."
This Means NO "ONE RELIGION" Will Be Deemed OUR NATIONALLY RESPECTED RELIGION & Anyone Of Faith Can Celebrate Their Chosen Religion As They See Fit.(See "Bill Of Rights", Below)
The CONSTITUTION Restricts The Government From Ruling Over "The People". The BILL Of RIGHTS Was Drawn Up To Address "The People".
The Bill Of Rights, Broken Down, Allows "The People" To Do As They Please, Including The Celebration Of Holidays, Providing Their Actions Do Not Infringe Upon Anybody Else's Rights.
Nobody Should Be FORCED To Celebrate Christmas & The Choice To Keep Your Children Out Of A Choir, That Might Expand Their Talents With Songs Like The Carol Of The Bells, Is Yours Right. But, By CONSTITUTIONAL LAW, No One Has The Right To Eliminate The Culture From OUR Society.
If This Country Were Indeed Governed Under Constitutional Law, We Would Be The EPITOMY Of Freedom & Envied By The Rest Of The World.
It's Really THAT SIMPLE.


Message 31 of 60 (Msg # 549107:517)
Subject: Re: CHRISTmas
Date: 12/24/04 3:03:31 AM EST
Author: OlderMusicGeek

"For Those That Choose To Eliminate The Existence Of GOD, Contact The ACLU & DEMAND To Be Allowed To Work On December 25th. As It Is "Just Another Day" For You, Holiday Pay Should Not Apply, As A Matter Of Honor."

This would be fine, except that others don't get a paid day off for their holidays.

"This Means NO "ONE RELIGION" Will Be Deemed OUR NATIONALLY RESPECTED RELIGION & Anyone Of Faith Can Celebrate Their Chosen Religion As They See Fit."

This is being done, because other religions are being allowed to put up their displays in the same space.


Message 1 of 5 (Msg # 549107:481)
Subject: IT"S ABOUT TIME
Date: 12/24/04 1:47:03 AM EST

Wow, an arm of government has finally stood up for freedom of speech and good sense. We as a nation have gone too far in trying to repress religious expression. If having Christian symbols on display means allowing displays from other religions, then so be it. In this case, festivus is a joke but it's a start.


Message 2 of 5 (Msg # 549107:488)
Subject: Re: IT"S ABOUT TIME
Date: 12/24/04 2:02:24 AM EST

The problem is that now they're trying to do away with Christian symbols, and let all the other ones in. I'm all for having your religious symbols displayed and so on, but don't take away my right as a Christian to worship Jesus. And by the way, I'm a big Seinfeld fan. Festivus is hilarious!


Message 3 of 5 (Msg # 549107:494)
Subject: Re: IT"S ABOUT TIME
Date: 12/24/04 2:19:07 AM EST

[[The problem is that now they're trying to do away with Christian symbols, and let all the other ones in. I'm all for having your religious symbols displayed and so on, but don't take away my right as a Christian to worship Jesus . And by the way, I'm a big Seinfeld fan. Festivus is hilarious!]]

Actually, they HAVE been trying to do away with Christianity for many years, i.e., prayer or even a moment of silence in schools. My point is, if by strengthening Christianities public stand, we need to support other religions, then that's fair. Besides, the Constitution speaks of "religion", not just Christianity.


Message 5 of 5 (Msg # 549107:521)
Subject: Re: IT"S ABOUT TIME
Date: 12/24/04 3:18:56 AM EST
Author: OlderMusicGeek

"Actually, they HAVE been trying to do away with Christianity for many years, i.e., prayer or even a moment of silence in schools."

Some people don't believe in prayers, and most prayers have references that people of other religions don't need to be subject too.


Message 1 of 19 (Msg # 549107:24)
Subject: Majority are Christian
Date: 12/23/04 5:30:59 PM EST

All who come to this nation know without doubt that the majority here are Christian in their beliefs. Why should we have to erase all traces of our faith so as not to offend others? I am offended that I can not publicly display my beliefs; what happened to our freedoms? If you don't like Christians leave, we have gone out of our way to make all feel welcome. Why should we conform to your beliefs or restrictions? We Are "ONE NATION UNDER GOD" "IN GOD WE TRUST" group of God fearing God believing people. When we dismiss God in this Nation look for the end to be near.


Message 19 of 19 (Msg # 549107:524)
Subject: Re: Majority are Christian
Date: 12/24/04 3:22:15 AM EST
Author: OlderMusicGeek

"Why should we have to erase all traces of our faith so as not to offend others? I am offended that I can not publicly display my beliefs; what happened to our freedoms?"

You can display anything you want on PRIVATE property. But on PUBLIC property, everybody - or nobody - should be allowed to have a display.